The Truth about Aikido in MMAFiled Under: Rantings
I’ve heard it all.
“Aikido is too dangerous, so therefore it isn’t allowed in MMA.”
“Aikido doesn’t work on trained fighters or resisting opponents.”
“Aikido masters are bound to a philosophy of gentleness and non-fighting; therefore no true Aikido master can compete legally anyway.”
“Aikido is sucks in MMA, therefore Aikido sucks.”
“Steven Seagal knows Aikido, and he’s killed like 300 people. It must be awesome.”
I’m sure you can dig up your own “nuggets of wisdom” on a Sherdog or Youtube – these sites being the epitome of truth, balance and logic. ( Personally, I love the way information and error is rolled into one comical thread of flaming, poor grammar and misrepresentation)
Aikido isn’t the only disputed martial art in MMA; I’ve heard similar jaw-jacking about Karate, Judo, Dog Brother’s stick fighting, etc. There are always fanboys and haters, no matter what you choose. I’ve recently had some people ask me about this, so I’ve decided to post my thoughts.
Anyway, there is some sorting out to do.
In the next few pages, I’d like to see if I can shine some light on Aikido and it’s relation to MMA.
The Truth about Aikido
The truth about Aikido is that it is not Mixed Martial Arts. While this might seem explicitly obvious, this often gets lost in the noise of the internet.
Every discipline, MMA and Aikido included, has a set of generally accepted rules, ideals, and goals. Just like a culture (or discourse community if you want to get technical), these disciplines “share common social space and history, a common system of standards for perceiving, believing, evaluating and acting.” (Kramsch, p 127). On these grounds, MMA and Aikido are almost unrelated.
I think this is an important line of reasoning because Aikido in particular is the victim of a multitude of unfair comparisons, evaluations and straw man arguments. Aikido and MMA expect different things from their students, and their students should expect different things from their respective arts.
Analyzing MMA and Aikido
When evaluating how “good” Aikido is, we must ask, how good at what? How good are Aikido techniques in a MMA competition fight? Or how good is Aikido, as a martial art, in acheiveing the goals it sets out for itself? How good is Aikido training in preparing a fighter mentally, physically and technically for a MMA bout?
It’s generally accepted that Aikido is a defensive art; its techniques emanate from the philosophy of gentleness, control, and flowing with an attackers power. Many techniques are designed to address weapons (Japanese sword arts) and multiple attackers; techniques involve wrist locks, joint manipulation and throws but never strikes or kicks. I know a couple of policemen and bouncers who have used Aikido effectively. Aikido is non-competitive art. Aikido also has a large spiritual component as well.
Now consider the rules and goals of MMA. The general goal of MMA training is prepare a person to be able to win MMA fights. The fighter can win fights by knocking his or her opponent out, submitting them via chokes/joint locks, or scoring well on judges score cards. Generally, competitions are made up of 3 five-minute rounds; fighters wear 4-ounce fingerless gloves, no shirt and fight-shorts; eye-poking, biting and neck/groin strikes are prohibited; judges score rounds on a 10 point system based on aggressiveness, ring control, strikes landed, etc; timidness or avoiding the fight in the ring can cause a reduction in points; small joint manipulation is illegal; You get the idea.
From this, its easy to see that Aikido diverges from MMA and creates a product to suit its framework.
The Crossover of Aikido and MMA
From what I’ve said above, you probably get the idea that Aikido has a little, but some, overlap with MMA. Still, you’re probably asking, “Okay, but can Aikido techniques be useful in MMA?”
Yes, absolutely. If you choose the right ones.
Also remember that , Morihei Ueshiba created Aikido from a collection and fusion of Japanese Jujitsu, sword fighting and spear fighting arts. (BTW, the take down Lyoto Machida uses in the vid can also found in Russia) While attending a seminar given by my Sensei’s Sensei he instructed the kimura, armbar and the fireman’s carry throw, among many other things *. In fact, the fireman’s carry is one of his favorite throws – one that a bunch of guys down at Fusion BJJ use – and at 80 plus years old and 110 lbs, he threw me better than a lot of guys I train with now.
There is a fighter named Rik Ellis , an MMA fighter who has an extensive Aikido background (but obviously trains MMA now) and he’s said some interesting remarks. He has said that the Aikido-in-action in MMA is very different than that which is typically trained. The typical stance and hand movements are left behind, but body movement is applicable. When asked, he mentioned a few specific techniques like, “Irimi Tenkan which I use to put my opponent either into or out of the cage wall.” I believe he’s also mentioned using Irimi nague from the clinch, as well.
Also, John H, one of the instructors down at Fusion (who has had a half dozen or so years of Aikido training in addition to his brownbelt in BJJ) told me that the notions of distancing and angles could also be useful in a MMA setting.
The Problem with Aikido as component of MMA training
With that said, there are several major problems in justifying Aikido as an appropriate component of MMA training. Like I said earlier, Aikido isn’t a good match in terms of goals and ideals, so right off the bat it’s like cross-training in snowboarding to get better at water polo.
In no particular order, here are some other things to consider:
Outside of the subset of potentially transferable techniques, Aikdio spends a good deal of time developing things that are of no use or negative impact to your MMA game (stance work and hand position, for example). In contrast, a discipline like collegiate wrestling spends a majority of time giving you tools and attitudes that easily adapt to MMA, and furthermore these tools make up about 1/3 of the MMA game (striking, wrestling and submissions).
Aikido has a lack of attention to defense of fast, linear strikes, striking combinations and leg kicks. Perhaps I’m wrong, but 70-80% of the techniques are geared towards circular strikes, wrist locks, grab counters, gi-manipulation, self-defense applications and throws. (Please, Aikido students correct me if I’m wrong!)
Aikido doesn’t teach you how to punch and kick.
The Aikido stance isn’t really that good for MMA. The lower base and front leg forward seems like it could be taken advantage of easily by a good kicker or double leg take down. I heard a story of a Muay Thai student abusing an Aikido guy in a dojo match up with low kicks. The extended front leg got beat up to the point where the Thai guy just stopped out of mercy. Perhaps the tale isn’t true, but it makes sense.
Aikido doesn’t really address ground and pound, clinch fighting and BJJ/wrestling deal with Newaza (ground work) in a fashion more true to MMA, IMO.
Aikido practitioner wear the hakama – a gi – while MMA fighters need to make sure their techniques work 100% without them. Additionally, MMA fighters wrap their hands and wear gloves. The gloves change the game considerable in terms of you ability to grip your opponent and your own hands, as well as hampering wrist locks (if they are even allowed in your MMA fight).
In the world of competitive sports, lack of aggression is a killer. (And don’t confuse yourself: MMA is a sport – not self defense) . The purely defensive mindset of Aikido may be artfully beautiful, but misplaced in MMA. The best defense is a good offense, as they say.
Aikido has a steep learning curve. It’s complex and requires a deep amount of body sensitivity and awareness. These things do not come quickly. I remember my Sensei talking to me about a wrist-lock called the 20-year technique; a move that obviously required a lot of work to become good at it. Not to say that a six-month “20-year technique” wouldn’t be useful; however, from my experience, it’s reasonable to say that a simple one year punch beats a complicated one year punch defense. To me, Aikido seems like something you have to get into it for the long haul for it to triumph other things.
MMA has an inherent element of physical fitness training built into it. Aikido can make you more flexible and relaxed, perhaps burning a modicum of energy, but Aikido in no way prepares you for the rigors of fighting. Strength-endurance, explosive power and top-notch cardio aren’t found in there.
Additionally, there is the problem with technique selection. Sure a standing kimura could be a valid technique, but wouldn’t a straight jab be more useful a greater portion of the time?
Summary
So there you have it. When someone asks, why isn’t Aikido or Tai Chi or Kung Fu used MMA, you have an answer for them. Divergent expectations, rules and goals. Apples and oranges and pineapples.
I want to remind you that I’m in not “bashing” Aikido. I think it’s a wonderful thing with a lot of fascinating philosophy, tradition, and technique. It’s just not a great fit in terms of complementing MMA performance.
Also, if you’re looking for an Aikido class, Logan Heinrichs is an excellent instructor and teaches at the University of Utah (there is a misprint in the instructor name this semester).
P.S. If I’m ignorant to the facts, inform me! If you’ve got an opinion, share it!
* Including how to defend against a seated opponents sword draw when you are facing off with him, kneeling face to face.
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September 1st, 2009 at 3:14 pm
[...] This Article comes from SLC MMA To see the full original article click here [...]
September 2nd, 2009 at 1:11 pm
To me the more you know the better. I played a lot of racquetball in high school and I invited a friend of mine to come join us one time, he’d never played before, but his athleticism in basketball, football and other sports gave him a “head-start” in racquetball skills and he picked it up really quick.
While I’m sure there are some habits that would need to be broken for fighting (wrestlers and jiu-jitsu practitioners go through the same thing) I don’t see why knowing Aikido would be a bad thing. If anything it could give you an edge in MMA. If everybody is so familiar with Striking, Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu, an Aikido throw would slip through, like that Machida video you posted. Take downs are big points.
September 2nd, 2009 at 4:29 pm
I agree, it can only help round out your game, but certainly can’t stand on its own the Machida vid is a excellent example.
September 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
hi…….i think this is a great source of knowledge about aikido mma
While I’m sure there are some habits that would need to be broken for fighting (wrestlers and jiu-jitsu practitioners go through the same thing) I don’t see why knowing Aikido would be a bad thing. If anything it could give you an edge in MMA. If everybody is so familiar with Striking, Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu, an Aikido throw would slip through, like that Machida video you posted. Take downs are big points.thx..
glad to send
October 4th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Hey,
I really liked how you approached the distinction between aikido and MMA. I really respect that.
But the question i think you might want to ask is not which martial arts is better? Its rather who is better trained. So when you talk about cardio training and straight punches and low kicks, i agree there are no explicit moves that is taught in aikido to counter these.
I have been studying aikido for 2 years and the thing that fascinates me the most about aikido is that there is so much to explore and ur not only training your body but you have a lot of food for thought too.
I think the one reason that you missed that aikido is not used in MMA is because MMA tends to be a drawn out brawl with a lot of punching and ground and pound (correct me if i am wrong) but aikido having come from samurai martial arts in the medieval ages, its not built to mess about. Its one move kill. That is the basic philosophy. One does not mess about doing blocks as you must have seen in the videos when a guy actually does a wrist or elbow lock, it pretty much breaks and the fight ends. I dnt think that would go down really well with the sponsors.
The other major point is the philosophy behind aikido is peace and non violence until pushed to the edge. So the people who do train and get really really good at it would not take part in MMA anyway coz by that time, they have moved on to another plane of philosophy which as much as it sounds like a cliche is actually true. And there is no sense of competition in aikido because we do train with deadly seriousness. And to all who think aikido is BS, i guess i can only say how can one judge something without even trying it and aikido is something which takes at least 10 years of training to even understand what KI is hehe. I know its a insane challenge but thats where the fun is
.
Peace
And its kinda cool you could actually read through all this.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
Agree, Aikido ‘techniques’ by itself has no place in mma, or dare I say it, in street fighting. This is from someone with a dan grade in aikido and over 10 years experience (me).
You talked about techniques and stances, which brings up good points. The problem is a lot of practitioners see aikido techniques and stances as ‘the real deal’, rather as training tools to enforce/explore certain fighting principles, body use, angles and leverage. For example, the long forward stance is impractical, but it enforces certain body use for forward power generation; once you get that you can do narrower stances.
It should be remembered that the founder’s (Ueshiba) original students were already experts in other martial arts (like judo and karate) which had large components of non-cooperative sparring, which in those days were quite brutal. These people did not come to Ueshiba to be taught how to fight someone who will actually fight them back (they’re already good at that). But my guess it that they learned some new principles that can enhance their existing fighting skills.
In other words, Ueshiba’s original students were cross-trainers who did ample amount of realistic sparring. That is what’s lacking these days.
This brings the next point. If those original students were already used to brutal, hard training before they came to Ueshiba, the fact that they called his dojo ‘Hell Dojo’ gave us a clue of the harshness of training that Ueshiba gave them. Hard training where one is pushed to the limit is essential in developing proper mind set for fighting, not to mention the resulting body conditioning. This is what’s lacking in Aikido dojos nowadays. I think Sensei Ellis will agree with me on that one. (note: I’m NOT connected with Ellis Aikido)
I think the interpretation of the saying’ Aikido has 10,000 techniques’ means that the principles of aikido, if trained properly, can be applied to any martial arts ‘techniques’.
October 15th, 2009 at 9:43 am
Rex –
That’s a cool point you’ve brought up that I’ve never considered: original Aikido guys already knew how to put fist to face.
Piyush -
I agree that the complexity and depth are alluring when it comes to Aikido. However, the whole “Aikido is a one move kill – therefore it isn’t allowed.” is a bit of fantasy thinking.
Guys in the UFC are doing elbow, shoulder and leg locks. Guys doing jujitsu are even doing wrist locks while sparring.
Yes, wrist/arm locks are effective.
No, they are not easy to get against a savvy, resisting opponent.
Yes, a good joint lock can be a fight stopper.
No, joint locks are not considered a “one hit kill” … unless you consider their old time application with swords. Which are not typically allowed in MMA.
Thanks everybody for commenting!
October 16th, 2009 at 5:58 am
Thanks for this interesting post. – I cross train in Aikido and Judo
There are punches and kicks in Aikido, they just aren’t commonly practiced. There are defences against straight punches in Aikido. Many etemies will address straight punches.
The Notion that Aikido is purely defensinve is false. There is a offensive and defensive components to every aikido technique.
My Aikido instructor taught an Aikido class to people of mixed diciplines. They were all fourth and fourth dan and above. He could handle all the strikers quite easily. – He even beat the boxer Sam Soliman (who lost to Anthony Mundine) using pure Aikido. He told me he definately go t caught out by the grapplers at first, but in the end no one could really get him down. Lots of people would challenge him and few would get a punch in.
I know it sounds like an urban myth or some mythical character off ‘Kill bill, but I learn off this guy and he is exquisit. A warrior out of his time.
Peace out.
December 30th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
I practiced Yoshinkan Aikido under Jo Tambu in melbourne for over a decade as a young man. And my experience is quite different to some of the other posters. For instance, there is no fixed fighting stance in aikido, as the form is reactive and fluid. Katas are necessarily practiced from various starting positions, but any initial stance is really just a function of the kata itself. If aikido does have a ‘stance’ its probably arms to the side, with legs in line shoulder width apart, and the center of gravity slightly lowered. effectively no stance at all.
People often criticise aikido’s impracticality in a street fight, and to some degree such detractions are fair. But in Aikido the highest premium is placed on avoiding the attackers strikes first and foremost.
So although i’ve never kotagayashed someone in a real blue (as much as i’ve wanted to and tried), i have consistently employed the skills aikido taught me in evasion, and using an opponents force and strength against them.
January 6th, 2010 at 3:56 am
Very interesting post and comments from everyone.
I’ve been practicing Aikido for some time and received my sho-dan and find that I’m still learning. I find Aikido a long learning curve that takes many years (more like many decades) to master. When starting out I found that new students use power to overcompensate for technique and the higher level you are, the more you try to use technique instead of power.
But even so, Aikido can be very deadly when used wrong. We learn Aikido to try to control the opponent using the least movement or damage to either party. But there are some techniques that can be damaging or deadly if not done correctly. I’m sure most of aikido users no what I’m talking about with Shiho-nage. If not done correctly, it can break the elbow, so we try to do it without harming too much to the opponent.
MMA uses strikes and ground work and I find that most MMA users get their black belt in less than 2 years. That quickness in getting black belts gives them overconfidence and lack of discipline sometimes.
In real fights, I’m sad to say that I have used Aikido to get out of those situations and learned that because of my lack of training I ended up injuring them more than I needed to. The injuries to my opponent from my Shiho-nage and Kotegaeshi showed me I need more training to make it more effective, not painful.
I’ve seen my Senseis, Sensei’s Uchi-deshi (live in student) who’s 45 years old 180lb training for 20+ years threw a 240lb 4-Dan Judo practitioner across the room one day because he challenged him. The Judo guy was fine and wasn’t injured at all.
I know some people may say Aikido is a weak martial art, but there are many styles of Aikido. There are some gentle ones (I practice) or some that emphasis on hurting the opponent.
I also find that once people start practicing Aikido they don’t want want to dishonor it by going into MMA to promote it.
February 17th, 2010 at 6:37 pm
Aikido is not really a sport, it’s a martial art. You can compare Aikido to the Buddhism of martial arts. O’sensei developped Aikido to promote peace. Aikido takes many years to learn, until une reaches old age but I feel the rewards are great, especially when we talk about Ki.
July 31st, 2010 at 4:19 pm
[...] said this before about Aikido – we should be careful to attribute things to a system that it may not even claim about [...]
October 17th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
I disagree with the author’s assertion that Aikido does not use strikes. Aikido masters say that atemi, strikes, are needed to set up techniques in real life situations. Aikido masters know how to use atemi effectively.. with shocking pain.
November 6th, 2010 at 7:12 am
Aikido is like Tai-Chi but with training partners. It’s great for your body and mind even if you are old but it’s not effective in a fight.
If someone wants to learn fighting, Aikido is not a good option.
Nice post.
November 12th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Ok, I would like to say a few things about Akido, having trained for many years with this particular discipline.
Akido IS a defensive art, but the true beauty of it, is that it enables people of any size and strength to literally destroy attackers of any size and strength. It is especially formulatd for multiple attackers, or attackers with weapons, and it is closely related to Samuria sword fighting. Every move in Akido is a sword technique that is converted into empty handed moves.
Now, as for how dangerous it can be, let me give you a fantastic example. My sensi is an 81 year old 4ft 11 man, less than a 100 pounds, and always reeking of burbon. He routinely demonstrates moves on students well over 6ft tall, weighing close to 300 pounds. One day he asked a 6’5 295 pound guy to grab both his wrists as hard as he could at the same time. In one quick motion he slid his hands out of the students grip flipped his hands on top of his students hands, twisted his wrists 45 degrees the wrong way, applied the slightest bit of pressure and brought this mamoth of a man to his knees, writing in pain.
Now as for whether or not it would be effective in MMA. Considering the vast array of leverage based manuveres, the ability to floor someone who puts his weight into a punch, and the ability to use wrist locks in almost any position, means that YES, HELL YES it’s effective!
Are you kidding me? It’s so obvious that someone truly skilled with Akido could set the MMA world on FIRE! I routinely watch UFO and WEC bouts and I usually see about 5-10 spots in the fight where an Akido move would prove devestating. The problem with Akido is that it is meant to seriously injure ones attacker. The finishing moves can rip an arm out of its socket, break someones wrist, or hyper extend an elbow.
Furthermore, the idea that there is no offensive striking done in Akido is sort of a myth. Many times when countering a punch or breaking out of a hold, an Akido combatant will deliver a counter punch called an “Atmie” (phonetically speaking I can’t spell the word and I never could) An Atmie is a counter punch or kick that is meant to break an opponents.
More still, Akido is not that different from Japanese Jujitsu. Many of the arm bars and other similar manuveres are taught in Akdio, but Akido focuses more on wrist locks.
There are some moves like Shionagi and Ikyo that may not work in MMA but Nikyo Sankyo and Kotagashi are perfect for the sport.
MMA fighters are usally short and compact with their punches, HOWEVER there are times when they throw their weight into one and that is where Akido is so deadly. Like I said before Akido can be brutal on the ground as well. Moreover when a fighter tries to grab an opponents upper body, either clenhcing or going for a take down, it is a simple task to wait until he shifts his weight and then using the weight shift to break something on his body.
I don’t know why, Akido is never used in MMA but it could be a valuble MMA weapon. Besides it sure would be nice to see a true master use it in the octogon.
November 12th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
I love your enthusiasm! I hope some high level Aikido guys go into MMA as well. It’d put a lot of these issues to bed.
January 29th, 2011 at 8:20 am
I agree with this article wholeheartedly. I’d probably be restating points made by the article, but here goes my two cents:
Traditional Japanese martial arts were used for unarmed self-defense against armed individuals in feudal Japan era, armored assailants in that same era, and non-striking art (for most traditional Japanese martial arts)against multiple assailants.
Mixed martial arts uses techniques and principles of different martial arts disciplines in order to be able to overcome a single unarmed (but similarly trained) opponent in three different areas of unarmed combat: standup (where strikes are more prevalent save for takedown techniques used to transition to ground), clinch (where striking and grappling are equally used), and ground (where mostly grappling techniques are used, with the person on top position in a better position for striking).
The martial arts used in MMA are chosen and honed by years of actually being able to apply it in a fighting situation, and thus, MMA had been evolving at an astounding rate, starting from a competition of style versus style (in which the result of such tournaments determined the martial arts disciplines that are deemed effective in one-on-one unarmed combat, particularly Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Boxing, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Freestyle Wrestling, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Submission/Catch Wrestling. Interesting to note that Wrestling and Boxing are probably the most ancient martial arts still used today, a testament to their effectiveness throughout the centuries), to hybrid fighter vs hybrid fighter (thanks to trial and error and proper judgement, whose training are better and who can utilize their chosen skillset better, ie submission wrestling and kickboxing VS muay thai and BJJ, wrestling and boxing VS BJJ and boxing, etc.), then finally, into fighter versus fighter (they are both using the techniques and skill sets that are deemed effective, they also athletic, trained hard and properly in order to be able to use 100% of their fighting ability. It is now truly a fight between two people, regardless of style).
Still, There are some people trying to incorporate the fighting styles they used all their lives (outside of the ones mentioned), then readjust it in order to suit MMA. Examples include Lyoto Machida using a modified Shotokan Karate (and some Sumo for takedown defense as well as being a BJJ adept just in case it goes to the ground), Chuck Liddell despite being a wrestler (which he used to neutralize takedown attempts from grapplers to keep the fight standing, a position one-dimensional grapplers loathe) using Kenpo karate while standing, Judo guys like Karo Parisyan modifying his judo in order to suit the no-gi environment of MMA, and various Kyokushin karate (and their offshoot/variants) fighters still using fragments of karate in their arsenal, like Bas Rutten, Georges St. Pierre and Semmy Schilt.
In that regard, Aikido alone, just like many other martial arts, would be of limited to no use in MMA due to its inherent aim (which is also a limitation true to many other martial arts as well) unless there’s someone who knows and understand how to readjust these techniques for MMA, enough to achieve success. Still, Aikido can still be used well in self defense with proper application of techniques and the user is not too adept to strikes, which is a whole other ball game of fighting that also requires just as much learning and training (ie a boxer has the best punches, so in order to be able to successfully attack with or defend against punches, one must understand boxing). Of course, there are some striking arts incorporated in some grappling martial arts, but using those strikes against someone who trains with the use of striking more isn’t too smart (there are cases of good grapplers who are wasting their efforts attempting to strike in MMA, at least not utilizing strikes to effectively setup and lead to a grappling situation that suits them.)
Aikido is actually one such art that can give someone who is too weak to throw strikes (or too weak or old to do anything other than use their hands for grasping) a fighting chance in a (unarmed) self defense situation. Of course, It’ll be hard to fight against someone who is more athletic, young, smart, trained, powerful, and even worse, a combination of those traits, but at least one has a chance, and that’s better than not having anything at all.
Those are my two cents, As stated earlier, excellent article!
January 29th, 2011 at 9:13 am
In response to Ian, I find the description for MMA a little unfair, and those are the same argument presented by various traditional martial artists that I wholeheartedly disagree with.
First, the BJJ blacks belts never take two years to earn. In most BJJ black belts I know, it’s actually a minimum of 10 years. A lot of MMA fighters look young since they’re in their 20s, but they trained since their teens, and most MMA fighters are at least purple belt level in BJJ). Do not mistake seasoned MMA fighters with McDojo black belt factories that actually give out their black belts in two years – these people won’t even last a minute in amateur MMA fights against someone trained.
Second is the attitude of “overconfidence” and “lack of self-discipline”. Popular media depicts MMA fighters as that, but I’ve met a lot of fighters (and a few popular ones) and the last thing I’d describe them are those two things. They’re very nice, reserved, friendly and humble individuals, just as many other martial artists out there. The media and press can change someone nice nad humble into someone cocky and overconfident very easily (don’t underestimate the power of video editing, camera work and interview strategies, folks – they’re powerful tools), and it’s somewhat encouraged in the fighting business in order to sell tickets, but outside the limelight and cameras can you see someone as they really are. Heck some traditional martial artists (not all, of course) are all nice and humble when a lot of people are watching (in order to make a good impression for their dojo), but when you see them everyday, they’re anything but. Goes to show that someone nice on camera can be a real mess in reality, and vice versa, and therefore, I’d rather meet a fighter than judge him solely on the impression that fighter shown on-camera.
Please don’t see this as an attack on your view, but as my defense for MMA (being a major martial arts enthusiast myself with a background in karate, submission wrestling, BJJ and taekwondo) by pointing out some flaws in viewing such, as MMA is always unfairly prosecuted by uninformed media. They still get the impression that MMA fighters are “bar brawlers”, despite bar brawlers not achieving any sort of success in MMA. There’s only one example of such a fighter (“Tank” Abbot) and he had nearly twice as much losses as he does win (and wins only against untrained fighters) – the media still thinks everyone in MMA is like this guy, even though he’s a sole exception.
In a real self-defense situation, the training and a lot of techniques in MMA translate just as well in self-defense. In the early heydays of MMA, eye gouging, groin attacks, neck and spine attacks aren’t illegal as they are today, but wrestling and BJJ was able to neutralize even those illegal attacks. Examples include how greco-roman wrestler Mark Coleman easily defeating former Israel soldier adept with Krav Maga using expert takedowns and repeated headbutts, lightweight grappler Yuki Nakai winning against a heavyweight karate/savate fighter via submission despite having his eye gouged earlier in the fight (he became blind from that eye, but only revealed that fact two years after than fight), in a closed door (but recorded) fight, despite five animal kung fu expert Jason DeLucia’s attempt to grab Royce Gracie’s hair, groin, and eyes, DeLucia was unsuccessful in doing those, and lost terribly against Royce Gracie’s Brazilian Jiu Jitsu techniques, and finally, Frank Trigg (wrestler) illegaly kneed Matt Hughes (also a wrestler) on the groin without the referee seeing it, and Frank Trigg capitalized by attacking relentlessly, only to for Matt Hughes to retaliate by reversing the position, lifting Trigg up, walks across the octagon (while still lifting Trigg), slams him, takes his back and choked Trigg – all while still flinching from the nasty groin strike. MMA fighters and their disciplines had been successful in fighting without having to resort to illegal techniques(in the ring, and in anecdotal evidence, outside of it), so therefore, overreliance of the illegal technique argument is moot, especially since a proper fighter would be prepared against those blows even in a sporting situation.
Another bit of two cents (that makes four cents haha). I know this is unrelated to Aikido, but it is related to MMA and martial arts overall. I hope this clears up any misconception in MMA. Interesting to note that I actually defended MMA in my thesis during college last semester, but stating those same points would be 3000 words longer
February 1st, 2011 at 5:16 pm
sukotsuto -
Good points all the way around, and thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts!
I also love how you highlighted “dirty tactics”. I hear this repeatedly from traditional martial artists, that because they practice these moves that they’d win the street fights.
From my (albeit limited) experience, positional dominance matters much more than specific attacks. When someone has the full mount on you and you poke them in the eye, you better use it as an opportunity to escape the mount. If not, the retribution eye poke you’ll receive is far worse. I’ve seen this with foot stomping, biting, groin strikes – a tactic known is a tactic blown.
You’ll see this in MMA with the foot stomp from the clinch – once one guy decides to do it, the other guy tries to do it as well; but the better positioned fighter attacks with more force and less risk.
I bet your college thesis was awesome!
February 6th, 2011 at 11:27 am
I’ve studied aikido for 11 years and I would say .. All styles aren’t equal! I started in Yoshinkan and have dabbled in and trained with aikikai students. The latter is beautiful and graceful but in my humble view a weaker form of aikido. I know study Kaizen aikido which is a progressive style taking the roots of aikido and adding in techniques from ninjitsu and other arts. I believe aikido needs to adapt to the modern world to survive as students will look at other arts if it doesn’t move forward
February 9th, 2011 at 4:16 pm
This is right out of a CNN article. Anderson Silva used Aikido to beat Belfot. Someone should bring this to Bas Ruten’s attention.
“Fighting experts say it’s uncommon for a front kick to have so much impact. After the fight, Silva credited action-movie actor Steven Seagal with helping him perfect the move. “
April 9th, 2011 at 11:24 am
The more I watch and train martial arts the more cross over and similarity I see. A lot of people knock aikido but it has roots in Feudal Japan and has been used in combat – only some styles are ‘sport’
April 9th, 2011 at 3:44 pm
Sorry to spoil the game here but brazillian jiujitsu was derived from the japanese jiujutsu which comes from judo and is only the competitive format of judo which is one of the foundations of aikido. Ultimately every technique that is used with any degree of success are all aikido techniques i.e. arm bar better known as kotegaeshi, reverse wrist locks aka reverse kotegaeshi,virtually every take down used in the mma are variations of a multitude of nage. But we are forced to never the less evaluate the skill level employed by the mma and at that point we see the dissapointment as all and I mean all competitors in the mma are at best ametures and while they may all be able to produce a “black belt” I question the instructor who bestowed this upon the student. Next, aikido is a real martial art that focuses on delivering real results for real combat such as a real broken limb, and while there are some actual techniques that are used to submit our opponents, as it has been explained and understood to myself the goal is to end the conflict not postpone it by way of knock out or tap out but rather through making it impossible for your opponent to attempt to attack any further, at least not without fist seeing a team of bone specialists. Many people watch television and youtube and when they se someone going through forms with an uki (that means partner for training)the first thing they say is that doesnt seem practical because of a particular type of strike being used etc. etc. but truth be told Aikido is without a doubt the most effective real martial art out there. Question would you want to use your “ground game” when your are faced with five or more attackers? If not then why use it with one?
May 9th, 2011 at 5:17 pm
aikiwushu instructor -
Sorry to spoil your game here – but I love spoiling games! (and raining on parades)
To me, a lot of Aikido-bashing and MMA bashing stems from “What I like is better than what you like”. Like I mentioned above, MMA and Aikido have vastly different aims and the rules (whether culturial or explicit) determine the behavior.
While would could argue over the chronology of when the moves were invented and who invented them, that MMA has adapted techniques to be extremely effective in their specific enviroment is beyond question.
Italy may have developed the pizza, but New Yorkers, San Franciscans all have claim to a legitimate pie that suits their needs. If you have a rule in your house that says, “only thin crust pizza’s consumed here”, then you’d see thin crust specialists. Thick crust is not better – it’s just thick crust.
As for Aikido being the “best” martial art in reality based street fights, that’s something you’d need to build an argument for – and really, something beyond the scope of this post.
(If you made that argument, I would disagree vehemently; I think Krav Maga’s training methodology, philosophy and techniques better suits street fighting; but hey, we’ve all got opinions.)
I’m not making the assertion that MMA is the art to learn for reality based self defense – so there is no need to defend Aikido like I’m trying to bump them an imaginary position of being the gospel of fighting truth. Personally, I think that defending when someone is not attacking is a sign of insecurity of position or misunderstanding. (If I haven’t been clear, forgive me, I’ll write better!)
Heck, I love Sumo wrestling. Does it have combat applications? Sure. Is it the best? No. Are top level sumo wrestlers really good at judo? Judo applied to fat guy wrestling … yes. Could Sumo be useful in MMA? Of course, but mixed martial arts in MMA is really useful too.
I just love it for what it is – fat dudes in diapers pushing each other out a sandbox. So what. Don’t judge me.
July 9th, 2011 at 7:21 pm
BartB -
Okay, I read the article and MOST of the comments so forgive me if I say something that was already said.
I was reading this statement:
No, joint locks are not considered a “one hit kill” … unless you consider their old time application with swords. Which are not typically allowed in MMA.
And I will agree that joint locks are not one hit kills. And before anybody jumps on me, I do favor Aikido but I generally strive to be as unbiased as possible. However, the two facts that I haven’t seen anybody bring up, is momentum and anticipation. While a “joint-lock” is not dangerous in a static situation, if the aikido was done “properly” the aikidoka would have anticipated the movement from his opponent and “should” be countering before the movement has reached optimal range. Reacting seems to work against the aikidoka. My sensei teaches that you must make you opponents move for them, i.e. trick them into doing something that you were already prepared for. And surprise comes with it too. When you apply a large amount of torque to a joint that is already in motion, I wouldn’t say “killing blow” but definitely a dislocated joint, effectively ending the fight.
Also, Akidoka’s are taught to strike, at least in my dojo. My sensei was taught to believe that you can never truly practice aikido if you don’t know how to strike a person. How can you practice correctly with someone throwing a low quality attack and how can they practice if they don’t know what to expect.
Lastly lol, MMA is MIXED-martial art. So asking, how would Aikido do in MMA is kinda stupid to me since the whole point of MMA is to combine styles to learn to fight effectively in the ring. That’s like asking how would green tea ice cream do in a sundae competition… you get my drift lol.
July 9th, 2011 at 11:16 pm
Aikihonesty –
Thanks dropping in! I love what you said in your last paragraph – I think it is very well put.
Still, I have questions about how good Aidoka’s striking is. Since I don’t regularly train with them, I am ignorant to the quality of their striking skills. Can anyone chime in with their experience?
August 11th, 2011 at 2:30 am
BartB,
First off, thank you for a very fair assessment of Aikido and it’s applications in MMA. It was one of the first articles in years I’ve read that did not boil down to a condescending pat on the head for practicing Aikido-ka. In response to Aikihonesty’s question you asked about how good an Aikido-ka’s striking was, the answer to this is a big “depends”.
Earlier (in 2009 lol) in the comment by Rex, he mentioned that many of O-Sensei’s students were all ready accomplished martial artists in various disciplines (some were even American Soldiers) and Ueshiba-sensei himself came from a background of military combat and several classic samurai martial arts. Once the students of Ueshiba began to spread their own teachings across the world Aikido was picked up by many different martial artists and continued to integrate aspects of other disciplines. I received my Black Belt certification (Shodan) two years ago in Mushin Kai style of Aikido which is a branch of the Nihon Goshin style created by Shodo Morita. It encompasses several different martial arts in combination with Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu (the samurai combat art most people refer to when they mention Aikido). For striking it focuses on blows derived from full contact Karate, which when practiced with full intent resembles Kung-fu, Boxing, and MMA. My instructor who created Mushin Kai took it a step further and added element of boxing (our initial striking kata is the 1-2 punch), Kali (indonesian stick fighting, used by most law enforcement agencies), and Sambo. Nihon Goshin (and thusly Mushin Kai) is known as the agressive form of Aikido for it’s use of such techniques, but by including these aggressive strikes into our training our students know how to defend themselves against more agressive opponents. In training we use combat lines, one person will stand in a relaxed position and the entire class will take turns attacking the unlucky soul with as much force as allowed (from light to full-throttle) which gives us the experience in defending against trained and untrained agressors. This of course isn’t true for every style, The Hombu style of Aikido which is sometimes described as flowing dance more akin to Capoeria, utilizes no real strikes and focuses purely on the movement and principles of Aikido.
I myself have been vexed by the constant berating of classic martial arts by the MMA community, both the forum trolls, avid fans, and even a few professionals and have thought about once or twice about entering the cage myself. I am currently conceptualizing an MMA style utilizing Aikido principles and techniques combined with Boxing, Karate, and Sambo. However the largest hurdle is not combining these techniques, but practicing the style. I must live in a particularly ignorant area for MMA because the gyms I have approached have refused to assist me in my pursuit.
In the end it comes back to the heart of MMA as said by Aikihonesty, it’s MIXED martial arts. An Aikido-ka will never enter the cage, it will be an MMA fighter who utilizes and announces his use of Aikido as well as whatever other techniques he has trained in and brought to the fight. Aikido can be integrated into every fighter’s arsenal, but so can boxing, and BJJ, and wrestling, you get my point…
Maybe one day we will see new mixed styles incorporating unseen arts, and I’ll be eagerly awaiting that day.
-Jodo
January 7th, 2012 at 7:40 pm
First off, let me just say that i think a lot of people are mislead or are misjudging martial arts or sports. Most people (unfortunately) decide to start an Art or sport due to its popularity,and not what suits them.First it was karate, then kick boxing , then Muay tai then brazilian Jiu Jitsu then MMA…”Thats in fashion! So thats what i will do!”
So when i ask some of these people,”why do u want to do MMA?” they mostly reply “so i beat/hurt someone if i have to”
People,lets be mature about this…To hurt someone is easy.You dont have to go learn an art or do MMA for years to beat someone up.All you need is preparation and will! Learn an ART because you like it.learn an art for just keeping fit,have some defensive skills and keeping a conditioned body.
My advise is,when it comes to choosing an art, is this:
1.Find an art that suits you! (not whats cool or in fashion)
2.Find a good Sensei (teacher)
Unforunately there are a lot of “teachers” out there that are not worthy,and the only thing they do is take your money.
Now as for MMA…I have the opinion that when u put rules and restrictions in an art,its stops being an art and it starts being a sport.When u are in a cage, and taken to the ground,you are not allowed to eye gouge,no biting,no hitting in the throat or scrotum and no manupilation of small joints(breaking fingers).Now my dear friends,when u are in the street,under real situations,all of the above are removed.plus who says that u will only have one opponent in the street?So, when u go for the BJJ takedown,just remember that u are not in the ring,and that u could be up against many opponents.Or, that one opponent pulls out a knife and stabs ur body that u clinched onto him.not to mention he could easy gauge out ur eyes.Being on the ground in real life on the streets is not recommended.I read an article from this MMA fighter that said “85% of all fights in the street end on the ground,so u should know BJJ”
First of all,its 85%(and if its that) because most people are useless and dont know shit about fighting,thats why they end up on the ground. Bring me a true experienced fighter and watch how the fight will end in a few seconds,without leading to the ground.
In closing,If an Aikidoka fights against an MMA fighter,who would win? well i guess the one that is more experienced in his own technique.By the way…where would they fight?in a cage or in the street? under which rules?will eye gauging be allowed?biting? hitting throat?or are u gonna forbid the aikidoka from these strikes?with or without gloves?
So you see how little things matter.And how an outcome can change due to restrictions and regulations.
Like i said…Do an Art that fulfills YOU! Not what others are trying to sell to you.Yes, it will take years of dedicated and continuous training,but thats what devotion to the Art means…
March 6th, 2012 at 1:02 pm
I’d say this is very accurate
I totally agree with the irimi tencom(spell check) irimi means to enter so YouTube irimi nage or shiho nage or heaven and earth throw all could be effective in mma blended with wrestling or bjj
Also the aikido ground game is very underrated the locks and pins we use are brutal if applied harshly
April 4th, 2012 at 4:02 am
On the Rik Ellis Aikido MMA blog (attached) he has a new video where demonstrates the techniques that he has personally transferred from Aikido into MMA.
Very interesting.
April 24th, 2012 at 10:00 pm
“Aikido is not MMA” Now this was the stupidest thing I’v heard in a long time.Guess what Jiu Jitsu is not MMA,Wrestling is not MMA,Muay thai is not MMA or Boxing is not MMA.What is your point.MMA=Mix Martial Arts so it’s a mix of combat styles